Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Powering A3RX-C Stereo Set-Up

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Powering A3RX-C Stereo Set-Up

    Hello,

    Looking to upgrade to Chane A3RX-C speakers from my Klipsch F-20s, but I'm not sure my receiver (Yamaha RX-V573 with 85 WPC @ 8 Ohms) is quite up to the task of powering the speakers so that they sound their absolute best. Am I reading too much into the recommended power of 80-150 Watts or would I need to upgrade my receiver as well to get the best out of the A3RX-Cs? Upgrade options I've looked at so far are the Emotiva XPA-200, but this may not be ideal as I may add a sub to the system at some point, or the Sony STR-DN1050. Budget is kind of up in the air depending on how much the Klipsch go for and whether or not I end up selling the Yamaha receiver as well.

    Thanks in advance.

  • #2
    Originally posted by TheDisruptor View Post
    .... but I'm not sure my receiver....is quite up to the task of powering the speakers so that they sound their absolute best.
    More power is only needed if you listen at such high volumes that pushes the amp to it's limits causing clipping.
    If you constantly turn the receiver volume up past 3/4 to get satisfactory volume (Sound Pressure Levels (SPL)) then you may be pushing it's amps and power supply up to it's limits, this instance probably would do well with more power. If you get plenty of SPL's with the receiver volume lower than 3/4, more power is probably not needed.
    You may need less than 50WPC to get satisfactory SPL's. In this instance a 250WPC amp will sound no different than an 85WPC amp (unless the 85WPC amp is low grade). I don't think your V573 amp would have intolerable distortion as long as it is being operated within it's published specs.


    Originally posted by TheDisruptor View Post
    Upgrade options I've looked at so far are the Emotiva XPA-200, but this may not be ideal as I may add a sub to the system at some point...
    Subs typically have it's own onboard amplifier, so an AVR or separate amp would not need another amp channel for a sub.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by TheDisruptor View Post
      Hello,

      Looking to upgrade to Chane A3RX-C speakers from my Klipsch F-20s, but I'm not sure my receiver (Yamaha RX-V573 with 85 WPC @ 8 Ohms) is quite up to the task of powering the speakers so that they sound their absolute best. Am I reading too much into the recommended power of 80-150 Watts or would I need to upgrade my receiver as well to get the best out of the A3RX-Cs? Upgrade options I've looked at so far are the Emotiva XPA-200, but this may not be ideal as I may add a sub to the system at some point, or the Sony STR-DN1050. Budget is kind of up in the air depending on how much the Klipsch go for and whether or not I end up selling the Yamaha receiver as well.

      Thanks in advance.
      I find that the power supplies on the vast majority of AVRs priced under $1K are of poor quality AND are spec'd to be far too small for their application. They are the single most expensive part in an amplifier (and the heaviest unless dealing with a SMPS) and they also create a lot of heat and occupy lots of space in an AVR's chassis. Because of these issues, power supply quality has retreated steadily over the past few decades and the power supply has a direct effect on the manner in which an amplifier amplifies sound.

      As a cheap laminate power supply transformer begins to saturate and approach its maximum current ouput, there many bad things that happen, to include, but not limited to the following: rail voltage sag, compression and clipping of fast transients, thermal saturation (which, itself, limits the output of a transformer), etc. Most people have NO IDEA how often their el-cheapo AVR goes into clipping...especially during home theater use. Most companies are smart and include rudimentary soft-clipping circuitry that limits rail voltage and may also compress the input signal in a sort-of- feedback loop design because the designers KNOW that it's not a question of IF, but WHEN their amp will clip. Getting off my soapbox....

      Having listened to many AVRs at all price strata, very few provide the fullness, headroom for transients, and dimensionality of a quality standalone amp.

      Just look at the weight of the XPA-200 vs the Yammy; 18lbs vs 31lbs.

      Also, take a look at the max current draw on the back of the AVR, it will likely read somewhere in the 300-400 watt range. Now, subtract 40% of that for inherent class A/B amplifier inefficiency and divide by the number of channels you want to drive (for this conversation, 2 channels) and you have the highest possible current that the Yamaha will ever pass on to any loudspeaker...and this doesn't account for distortion levels, loudspeaker impedance, etc.

      So, for an AVR that lists a max current draw of 400 watts from the wall outlet (round numbers are easier, lol), you subtract 160 watts just because class A/B amps have an inherent inefficiency in amplifying audio signals. That leaves us at 240 watts. Divide that by 2 and you get 120 watts (per channel, assuming stereo). However the 120-watts-per-channel number isn't taking into account the number or quality of output devices, how well they are able to dissipate heat (size of heatsink, method of attachment, chassis' ability to get cool air into, and hot air out of, the actual chassis proper), etc...so the output devices will likely not afford a full 120 watts x2 for any usable length of time, if any. Or you can divide that 240 by 5 and you get 48 watts per channel (for surround sound, YAY!). And that is the absolute maximum current that AVR will supply. This is regardless of speaker impedance, amplifier distortion levels (.009%? .09%? .9%? 9%? 30%? Who knows?), musical peaks, etc.

      Do the math with most AVRs on the market that are priced under a grand and the real world numbers are intensely underwhelming.

      Bottom line, the XPA-200, with it's toroidal power supply transformer, multiple output devices, and ample capacitance will sound better. I also know this because I've heard one A/B'd on a set of original A5 towers with a higher-end Denon AVR (4512 IIRC) and the difference was noticeable even at lower levels.

      A toroidal PS transformer also creates less stray interference with other devices and delivers more current than a laminate or E-core transformer of the same exterior dimensions. So, it's also more size efficient.

      However, I'm noticing that your Yammy doesn't have any pre-amplifier outputs, meaning an upgrade to a better AVR will be in order regardless if you seek an upgrade.

      EDIT: But this information applies to virtually all loudspeakers. Unless they have a crossover network designed by Rube Goldberg himself, so as to nearly completely mask any detail attempting to pass through, a loudspeaker will benefit from a better amplifier.

      I've listened to far too many amplifiers in the real world (pro amps, studio amps, home amps) to believe the statement that "all amps sound alike". My experience proves this assertion wrong.
      Last edited by BufordTJustice; 07-10-2015, 04:32 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        The second biggest improvement in my system was saying goodbye to my internal amps in my Yamaha RXV-1065 and adding(at the time) two Emotiva UPA-1 amps to power my Monitor Audio RX6 towers, at every volume level it just sounded better, clarity and dynamics improved and it sounded less muffled so as far as anyone saying that separates don't sound any better than a low cost receiver either don't have good enough hearing or a system and or room to be able to take advantage of it, in saying that yes we all have our different perspectives but for me it was a very noticeable upgrade.

        The first biggest improvement was treating my room with acoustic panels which can be done on the cheap going the DIY route, 1x2 MDF for the frames and Roxul Safe N Sound insulation and some cheap sheets from Walmart is what I did.

        I now own a Emotiva XMC-1 processor and for amps an Emotiva XPA-2 and XPA-5, remember though as you improve the components in your system you must also go away with listening to low bit rate MP3's and such, I find anything Emotiva has a very neutral sound so what goes in comes out, depending if you are a Dave Matthews fan or not the Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds Blu-ray is great for testing your systems SQ capabilities, very well recorded and sounds really really good on a nice setup.

        Just remember this is my opinion and we each will have our own, but to find yours there is no better way than to try out components yourself as we obviously in the end cannot tell you what you will like, but if you don't experiment or try different components you will never know, I can honestly say I will never willingly go back to a receiver running my setup, and not that Emotiva is the only thing out there but it's what I can afford for my system without taking out a second mortgage :P

        A good place to start would be a Sherbourn PT-7030 processor as they go for way less than they are worth IMO, and any of the Emotiva amps would work nice for the price and you can always find used ones for sale as well.




        Originally posted by TheDisruptor View Post
        Hello,

        Looking to upgrade to Chane A3RX-C speakers from my Klipsch F-20s, but I'm not sure my receiver (Yamaha RX-V573 with 85 WPC @ 8 Ohms) is quite up to the task of powering the speakers so that they sound their absolute best. Am I reading too much into the recommended power of 80-150 Watts or would I need to upgrade my receiver as well to get the best out of the A3RX-Cs? Upgrade options I've looked at so far are the Emotiva XPA-200, but this may not be ideal as I may add a sub to the system at some point, or the Sony STR-DN1050. Budget is kind of up in the air depending on how much the Klipsch go for and whether or not I end up selling the Yamaha receiver as well.

        Thanks in advance.

        Comment


        • #5
          Quick note: I really like how creimes77 has validated Buford's theory and advice. Mine too. A dynamic, revealing speaker really benefits from quality amplification, so much so that I'd recommend selecting a slightly smaller speaker model in order to work in enough budget for the better amplifier. (Smaller speakers may give up some acoustical size and volume, but they don't have to give up anything in musical sophistication.)

          I also like that while creimes77 has inadvertently refuted one of the myths about amplifiers, he hasn't resorted to any audiophile excesses either. No special cables, boutique brands, or other audio mythology. Just solid choices and a little balance and tuning. He's also confirmed

          • the need to listen first and make decisions later,
          • that beefier amplifiers can and often do bring more musical subtlety and definition at low volumes,
          • that sources matter. If you can't hear differences in recordings, the system has room for improvement.


          Just a great report about a really pragmatic path to good sound without spending a fortune or years assembling a fussy, special system.

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks Jon,

            One thing I forgot to mention and while I am no professional at everything audio haha I do believe that a good amp is more than just power specs and also the types and quality of components used and the circuitry of it all, it's kind of like a how a really good DAC chip can sound no better than a crappy DAC chip when improperly implemented into the circuitry around it. I have had many of the Emotiva amps and they pretty much sound identical no matter the power specs as we would rarely use the rated power with speakers like my A5-rxc's


            Oh and btw I am really enjoying my A5-rxc's and A2-rxc, with what I have invested in my system and the speakers being the least costly item of it all it sounds absolutely stunning, I actually have a friend who is a surgeon and has a fellow surgeon whom he works with that owns a very very expensive system and he actually preferred the sound of my setup which I think says a lot about these speakers.

            Chad

            Originally posted by Jon Lane View Post
            Quick note: I really like how creimes77 has validated Buford's theory and advice. Mine too. A dynamic, revealing speaker really benefits from quality amplification, so much so that I'd recommend selecting a slightly smaller speaker model in order to work in enough budget for the better amplifier. (Smaller speakers may give up some acoustical size and volume, but they don't have to give up anything in musical sophistication.)

            I also like that while creimes77 has inadvertently refuted one of the myths about amplifiers, he hasn't resorted to any audiophile excesses either. No special cables, boutique brands, or other audio mythology. Just solid choices and a little balance and tuning. He's also confirmed

            • the need to listen first and make decisions later,
            • that beefier amplifiers can and often do bring more musical subtlety and definition at low volumes,
            • that sources matter. If you can't hear differences in recordings, the system has room for improvement.


            Just a great report about a really pragmatic path to good sound without spending a fortune or years assembling a fussy, special system.

            Comment


            • #7
              I also agree a quality amp with enough headroom is very important. So, I was reading about and considering trying a D class pro audio amp for my soon-to-be Chane setup, but still considering options.

              I have 1 A2 (for center) on the way and will probably wait for the next gen A5 or whatever its going to be called once its ready here shortly.

              I was considering a Crown XLS 1000 or 1500 to power the A5's and maybe bridge the 1000 for the A2. Now of course the RMS output of these amps is MUCH higher than the RMS of these speakers, but with normal listening levels and volume control, I would think it would be a pretty nice setup with plenty of headroom and still sound great, esp for the price??

              I read about many doing this with their HT setups over on avsfourms and such.

              Now for pure audiophile, yes these would not ideal, but would they provide great sound and power for the money?

              Comment


              • #8
                I myself have never ran a pro amp(Class D) in my system but I know there are great sounding Class D amps out there but usually are a much higher cost than something along the lines of a Emotiva or Outlaw amplifier, that being said I have a friend who doesn't live where I do so I never got a chance to hear it but he runs an XPA-2 and did try out a Crown XLS-1500 and couldn't tell any difference between them but he has a full Emotiva setup as well and sold the Crown amp as it didn't match in his system. Again depending on our room and our ears we all hear things differently so YMMV.

                Chad


                Originally posted by banshee28 View Post
                I also agree a quality amp with enough headroom is very important. So, I was reading about and considering trying a D class pro audio amp for my soon-to-be Chane setup, but still considering options.

                I have 1 A2 (for center) on the way and will probably wait for the next gen A5 or whatever its going to be called once its ready here shortly.

                I was considering a Crown XLS 1000 or 1500 to power the A5's and maybe bridge the 1000 for the A2. Now of course the RMS output of these amps is MUCH higher than the RMS of these speakers, but with normal listening levels and volume control, I would think it would be a pretty nice setup with plenty of headroom and still sound great, esp for the price??

                I read about many doing this with their HT setups over on avsfourms and such.

                Now for pure audiophile, yes these would not ideal, but would they provide great sound and power for the money?

                Comment


                • #9
                  I am using an Emotiva 2-ch amp for the A5's as L&R using pre-outs. This sounds fantastic to my ears and has plenty of headroom for my listening. Many people are using the Crown amps, but some complain of fan noise. However, this may no longer be an issue, as I am no longer following those discussion since my purchase a few years ago. Others may come along that have more insight.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks everyone....The XLS are really cheap and on sale now since the XLS v2 are out. Places like Guitar Center has them for like ~70% off, plus some used/open boxed!! http://www.guitarcenter.com/Crown/XL...s-Power-Amp.gc

                    I will try them out and see how they sound. :biglaugh:

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I have a new Yamaha A850 with two A1's and an A2 for center and am deciding on the A3's or A5's (Where's that Massdrop). I imagine I would be ok on at least the A3's with the A850 but am intrigued by these amplifiers especially since my receiver has pre-outs.
                      How do you control volume with an amplifier plugged into a receiver? Does it just work with the receiver remote? What if I only put two speakers, like towers on an amplifier?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SoCalCyclist View Post
                        I have a new Yamaha A850... I imagine I would be ok on at least the A3's with the A850 but am intrigued by these amplifiers especially since my receiver has pre-outs.
                        If the A850 is not pushed beyond it's limits, it would do great with any of the Chane speakers (even the A5's).


                        Originally posted by SoCalCyclist View Post
                        How do you control volume with an amplifier plugged into a receiver? Does it just work with the receiver remote?
                        The AVR still controls the volume level, the AVR is still controlled by the AVR remote. Some amps have a gain knob/setting for matching input/output levels, but this is not a volume adjustment.


                        Originally posted by SoCalCyclist View Post
                        What if I only put two speakers, like towers on an amplifier?
                        The 'amplifier' may contain one or multiple amplifiers, it may contain one or multiple sets of audio in/outs. Each speaker gets it's own set of audio in/outs. You can use all of the provided in/outs, or you can use only a few, the amp doesn't care.
                        An amp that has a deficient power supply (weak), could benefit by using fewer of the in/outs, and by keeping the volume level lower.
                        An amp that has a properly implemented (strong) power supply, doesn't care how many in/outs is used, or how high the volume is.
                        Last edited by gdstupak; 09-22-2015, 02:11 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I just purchased my first Chane speaker, a new A-2 from the last Massdrop!! :biglaugh:
                          I am using it as a center for my HT, waiting for some matching A5's once the new ones are out! So far my Yamaha Rx-V773 AVR is powering them just fine. I have not had much time to tune it or even play it for long periods of time yet, but so far it seems great and is "breaking-in".
                          Now I may try a dedicated amp for it soon, and will see how it compares.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by banshee28 View Post
                            waiting for some matching A5's once the new ones are out!
                            The new ones?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by SoCalCyclist View Post
                              The new ones?
                              I understand they will get a few "updates" :cool:

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X