Atmos and the future of ceiling speakers

[dguarnaccia]

Hello Friends and happy 4th of July to those of us in US of A. I've been doing lots of research on the receivers that will be supporting Atmos, and I'm deeply curios about it. I've never bought into the whole height surround stuff, but Atmos (and likely Auro) represent 3D object audio that could actually calculate speaker distance and angle, and start to truely emulate 3D soundfields like video games have done for years. So my question is this: How might we get a version of the sho10/theater10 that is ceiling compatible. I have a low ceiling, especially after my stadium seating in the rear of the room, and I don't want to compromise my double sheetrock, isolation clipped ceiling but punching holes in it. So, I need a relatively low profile speaker no deeper than 4 inches.

Craig, any thoughts on if this is something you guys might entertain building at some point? If not, what other speaker might I be able to use that's similar to the sho10s? I'd love to have a 7.1.4 setup at some point.

[sbdman]

Great question, anything that will raise the HT bar experience is a good thing.

So, I just bought a X4000, now I've got outdated equipment - maybe? (laughing).

I kept thinking about running wires, and installing brackets for PLIIz highs, but, that was a synthesized method.

I haven't heard a theater with Atmos yet, and shouldn't comment, but, it's fun to speculate. What will be the general number of speakers required for a downsize of 64 channels in a commercial theater to a home theater? Probably an extra two? That has been the standard for AVRs with either wide and/or front-highs, 9.1 or 11.1. I have a deeper room, so wide would not be that easy to place. My previous 9.1 channel AVR could do one of those, but, I'd need an external amp with the new AVR.

Looking at the coming Pioneer speakers, I hear mention of Atmos-enabled speaker modules - add ons, that point to the ceiling. Can we say good luck to time aligning those? But, I'd bet they would have very intermittent use. Also guess those are not for the guy who has ceiling treatments.

I'm a tech/tweaker guy, and it sounds like Atmos could be more commonly excepted into Blu-ray movies than many of the other audio improvements that have been introduced to entice us into upgrades, but I'd wait and see. I'm just happy right now when I see the DTS 7.1 format used. Unfortunately with the mass marketing model, Atmos might just become another flash in the pan.

Edited - time to laugh at me. I bought a Samsung DVD player with NUON technology . Had 3D capabilities, and the player came with a game controller I had a few downloaded games for. It had a great interface for zoom and speed control with movies, though, I haven't seen since..

[Quenten]

Yeah, I kinda like the thougth of Atmos as well. But I agree, those ceiling speakers are going to be problematic. They will have to be small enought to be out of the way, yet still large enought to timber match. I hope it can be figured out. Never mind what imaging/soundstage will be like with the speakers over the rear row (we're talking about < 2-3 ft from their heads. May be able to extend them more forward for the front row).

I think the optimized speakers that will fire upwards will be for people that can't work in more due to space/WAF. Kinda like sound bars.

[craigsub]

Four inches deep does not allow for much of anything with decent efficiency ... this will be an interesting arena, this new Atmos.

Right now, we are concentrating on getting the reviews/tests done on the next generation subs and Theater 10's ... but this fall, maybe we can discuss a low profile speaker.

[boober]

Crazy, I just actually started reading up on Atmos last night. I'm curious about it as most HT guys are, and for me I can see it working very well. But I did just buy an Onkyo 929 so that I could run an 11.4 setup. But my wides in that aren't quite in the most ideal spot, and even if they were I don't think they add all that much to the mix. The heights in front I definitely notice, and I could easily swap out my wides and replace those with another set of heights easily enough so that would work for me really well if I did get an Atmos AVR. It does kinda annoy the hell out of me though that I just bought my AVR maybe 9 months ago and I'm already considering replacing it. :( I love it but that damn upgrade bug.....!

So I'd like to hear from anyone here if they've heard Atmos in action anywhere. It seems to be a pretty good upgrade over say Neo-X, but to buy a new AVR just to get Atmos is something I'm not sure I wanna do. Maybe I'll just see what next years AVR's have to offer unless Atmos REALLY IS MIND BLOWING!!!!!!!! :woo:

[Eric]

ATMOS seems like it would provide a neat effect and perhaps a more immersive soundfield but I do not know if it will be widely adopted for HT. I think when technology gets too complex, people tend to take an easier path.

How many speakers would be considered standard-11, 13 or even 15? One think I think is certain, 64 speakers are out as there's only so much room in the average home theater. For the added cost/complexity, there had better be a pretty compelling difference.

[sbdman]

Some more looking, dguarnaccia had it right, 7.1.4, where the .4 are the new Atmos channels. But depending on Denon, Marantz, Onkyo or Pioneer, it could be 5.1.2, on up to the 11 plus sub numbers. And Pioneer will have the front L/R speakers each with 2 channels, so no ceiling speakers, but reflecting speakers added on top.

Also, I see Pioneer and Onkyo will have software updates for their current high end AVRs, but, the other two will be new models. I'm guessing $1600 will be the bottom line for an Atmos AVR. We'll find out this fall when released how well it works, and how many Blu-ray titles will be Atmos enabled.

Otherwise, look for an Atmos theater in your neighborhood, and report back your experience. I'd love to hear your evaluation.

[Quenten]

Another issue that I have not been able to get information on, is that appears only 1 sub can be configured with room correction. I don't know if this is a fact, I just can't find out yet. The nomenclature should be 7.2.4 or however many subs one is running. If anyone has any more info, please chime in.

[Zing]

The nomenclature should be 7.2.4 or however many subs one is running.

I don't think this is correct. Those numbers are indicative of how many discrete channels there are, not how many subs you have. For instance, if you play back a Dolby TrueHD 5.1 movie on a system with 2 subwoofers, you're not getting 5.2 sound. There is still only one LFE channel.

[sbdman]

Another issue that I have not been able to get information on, is that appears only 1 sub can be configured with room correction. I don't know if this is a fact, I just can't find out yet. The nomenclature should be 7.2.4 or however many subs one is running. If anyone has any more info, please chime in.

Exact same thought occurred to me when I made my previous post about the latest AVRs with Audyssey Sub EQ HT. But Zing is correct - discreet bass is not possible, since it's unidirectional, and can't convey where it's coming from below 80 Hz or so. I think some AVRs touted 7.2, or 9.2, but only to show they could perform the separate distance aligning of each sub.

It will be interesting how discreet the .2 or .4 part of the equation will be, or if it's also just a timing issue. I was wondering what the Atmos Pioneer release meant by 11 to 12 different configurations for it's 9.2 units (there's that .2 statement!).

[Zing]

...since it's unidirectional, and can't convey where it's coming from below 80 Hz or so.

OK, I really don't mean to be a pedantic ass but I think you meant to say omnidirectional.

[dguarnaccia]

From what I've read so far, you can have 5 or 7 base speakers. This is your foundation set. Then you have your LFE channel, and lastly you have your object channels. 2 or 4 are recommended. I think 4 would be pretty immersive. The real neat idea though is if they implement Atmos correctly, till know where every speaker is, and then will be able to create better spatial positioning of sounds, beyond simple speaker distance delays. That's what I'm most excited about. I wonder what's needed in terms of FR from these object speakers. Would something like the design of the old AV123 RS300's work? Monopole of course, but those were only 5.5 inches deep IIRC.

[Quenten]

Agreed, only LFT in 1 channel. It's the Sub eq for multiple subs that I have not seen so far with Atmos AVR's. And I'm not saying it isn't there, I just haven't seen it spelled out on any models yet.

[sbdman]

Sorry to try to revive an old thread, but just wanted to know your status with Atmos. Did you install speakers in the ceiling?

Was just reading about a new immersive technology that may make placement less critical - DTS:X

I've always enjoyed DTS, and DTS-HD - seemed to just give the base area more impact. A lot of the 5 star ratings for movies with base content have employed this method. Somehow I've always trusted DTS over Dolby for a better experience.

But, then, would it be just another step in the continual "outdated AVR" syndrome that we've all experienced?